Discussion:
IT experts call BS on IRS claim to have lost Lerner emails
(too old to reply)
raykeller
2014-06-16 00:23:33 UTC
Permalink
June 15, 2014
IT experts call BS on IRS claim to have lost Lerner emails
By Thomas Lifson
The cover-up is always worse than the crime, the conclusion drawn from
Watergate, does not seem to have been learned by the IRS or whoever directed
it to make the claim late Friday that emails from Lois Lerner to outside
agencies (including most notably the White House) were lost in a computer
"crash." That claim is risible according to various experts.

Jason Howerton of The Blaze interviewed veteran IT expert Norman Cillo, "an
Army veteran who worked in intelligence and a former program manager at
Microsoft," who laid out six reasons, complete with charts, why he believes
Congress is being lied to. Among them:

1.. I believe the government uses Microsoft Exchange for their email
servers. They have built-in exchange mail database redundancy. So, unless
they did not follow Microsofts recommendations they are telling a falsehood.
(snip)
2.. Every IT organization that I know of has hotswappable disk drives.
Every server built since 2000 has them. Meaning that if a single disk goes
bad it's easy to replace. (snip)
3.. ALL Servers use some form of RAID technology. The only way that data
can be totally lost (Meaning difficult to bring back) is if more than a
single disk goes before the first bad disk is replaced..


He notes "All email servers in a professional organization use TAPE backup.
Meaning if all the above fails, you can restore the server using the TAPE
backups."

John Hinderaker of Powerline, a litigator with experience in court cases
involving demands for complete email records, knows that the IRS MUST have a
backup system for recording emails.

The Agency's manual on "Managing Electronic Records" has been made
public; you can read it here. A few relevant excerpts:

1.15.6.10 (03-27-2014)
?Transfer Media and Formats for Permanent Records

1. The legal requirements for the transfer of permanent records to NARA
[the National Archives and Records Administration] are documented in 36 CFR
1235 and set forth in general form in the paragraphs below. Consult the IRS
RIM Program Office for more detailed instructions and guidance on the
transfer for permanent IRS records.

1.15.6.10.1 (06-01-2010)
?Magnetic Tape

1. IRS offices may transfer electronic records to NARA on magnetic tape
using either open-reel magnetic tape or tape cartridges. Open-reel tape
should be on 1/2 inch 9-track tape reels recorded at 1600 or 6250 bytes per
inch and blocked no higher than 32,760 bytes per block. Tape cartridges
should be 18-track 3480-class cartridges recorded at 37,871 bpi and blocked
at no more than 32,760 bytes per block.

Other methods of permanent storage are also approved. What the IRS
describes in its manual is a standard document retention system. More:

1.15.6.8 (06-01-2010)?
Security of Electronic Records

1. IRS offices will implement and maintain an effective records security
program that incorporates the following:

A. Ensures that only authorized personnel have access to electronic
records.
B. Provides for backup and recovery of records to protect against
information loss or corruption.
C. Ensures that appropriate agency personnel are trained to safeguard
sensitive or classified electronic records.
D. Minimizes the risk of unauthorized alteration or erasure of electronic
records.
E. Ensures that electronic records security is included in computer
systems security plans prepared pursuant to the Computer Security Act of
1987.

***
At the direction of a management official as to what is considered a
record, the E-mail/Systems Administrators will establish procedures for
regular recopying, reformatting, and other necessary maintenance to ensure
the retention and usability of electronic records throughout their
authorized life cycle.

Hinderaker concludes:

.this is sufficient to demonstrate what was already obvious to those who
know anything about standard records management systems: a "crash" of Lois
Lerner's computer would not cause any emails to be "lost." The Obama
administration is lying, and lying in a remarkably transparent way.

He goes on to describe the ways in which data can be recovered from a
personal computer disk that has crashed, as well, citing his experience with
a data recovery firm that can pull data off a computer that has been sitting
at the bottom of a lake.

Now, this case is going to get interesting, when the cover-up starts to get
traced back to its origin. This is by definition a conspiracy, since
multiple parties had to be involved. Some of them are going to get cold
feet. Ace reporter Sharyl Attkisson lays out the questions she would
present, and they are enough to make the IRS officials involved start
thinking about copping a plea and implicating the higher ups:

...these are some of the logical requests that should be made of the IRS:

a.. Please provide a timeline of the crash and documentation covering
when it was first discovered and by whom; when, how and by whom it was
learned that materials were lost; the official documentation reporting the
crash and federal data loss; documentation reflecting all attempts to
recover the materials; and the remediation records documenting the fix. This
material should include the names of all officials and technicians involved,
as well as all internal communications about the matter.
b.. Please provide all documents and emails that refer to the crash from
the time that it happened through the IRS' disclosure to Congress Friday
that it had occurred.
c.. Please provide the documents that show the computer crash and lost
data were appropriately reported to the required entities including any
contractor servicing the IRS. If the incident was not reported, please
explain why.
d.. Please provide a list summarizing what other data was irretrievably
lost in the computer crash. If the loss involved any personal data, was the
loss disclosed to those impacted? If not, why?
e.. Please provide documentation reflecting any security analyses done
to assess the impact of the crash and lost materials. If such analyses were
not performed, why not?
f.. Please provide documentation showing the steps taken to recover the
material, and the names of all technicians who attempted the recovery.
g.. Please explain why redundancies required for federal systems were
either not used or were not effective in restoring the lost materials, and
provide documentation showing how this shortfall has been remediated.
h.. Please provide any documents reflecting an investigation into how
the crash resulted in the irretrievable loss of federal data and what
factors were found to be responsible for the existence of this situation.
i.. I would also ask for those who discovered and reported the crash to
testify under oath, as well as any officials who reported the materials as
having been irretrievably lost.
The claim of lost emails reeks of desperation and seat-of-the pants
decision-making. President Obama is known to play his cards very close to
his vest, often deciding major issues with the help of Valerie Jarrett, who
believes him to be infinitely knowledgable. That sort of hubris is the only
possible explanation for making a claim that is so easily disproved by
people with expert knowledge.

Follow the hubris.

Hat tip: Weasel Zippers and Clarice Feldman
Kickin' Ass and Takin' Names
2014-06-16 02:15:26 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 15 Jun 2014 17:23:33 -0700, "raykeller"
Post by raykeller
He notes "All email servers in a professional organization use TAPE backup.
Meaning if all the above fails, you can restore the server using the TAPE
backups."
TAPE BACKUPS!?!?!?!?!?

Tape backups went out with the Model T.
rbowman
2014-06-16 05:40:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kickin' Ass and Takin' Names
TAPE BACKUPS!?!?!?!?!?
Tape backups went out with the Model T.
Right. So what do you use when you want to write out about 6TB of data, you
would prefer it didn't take days, and you want to move the archival data off
site?
news13
2014-06-16 06:50:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by rbowman
Post by Kickin' Ass and Takin' Names
TAPE BACKUPS!?!?!?!?!?
Tape backups went out with the Model T.
Right. So what do you use when you want to write out about 6TB of data,
you would prefer it didn't take days, and you want to move the archival
data off site?
These peeps all think that hard disks are the way to go. Yer right. My
tech stores have the following break down;

HD < 650mb, ~30 still working
2GB HD, about 10/25 still working
Post by rbowman
2Gb to <500GB all dead.
=500GB, all new.
The only exception is 12 FW 3.5" 3/4 height 200GB(?) hard drives that I
don't have any way of using, they were ultra expensive server grade.


On tapes.
My DLT based system went belly up and it is going to cost me about $5,000
for a new drive($3.5K), New tapes(LT0, ~$1K) and $650 just for the
interface card to go into my computer system to feed in the data,

Thank goodness the old QIC & DAT tape drives still work.

OT, did you ever read the reprint of an old column about how it was
faster and cheaperto load the car up with floppies to transfer some
enormous amount from NY to LA? Back in the time of 300 baud datel lines.

On survival, our governemtn is pushing for the changing of copper
networks to Fibre and the removel of the copper. So, what hapens in a
massive SHTF event now?
rbowman
2014-06-16 13:50:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by news13
OT, did you ever read the reprint of an old column about how it was
faster and cheaperto load the car up with floppies to transfer some
enormous amount from NY to LA? Back in the time of 300 baud datel lines.
I do remember some talk about the digital effects for 'Tron'. It would take
them overnight to transfer a few seconds of computer animation. Even now
with a 100MB LAN if I have to move gigs of imagery it's often faster to
sneakernet it on a thumb drive.

The inverse of Moore's law applies to data. When the hardware speeds double,
the amount of shit to shovel quadruples.
Stormin Mormon
2014-06-16 10:50:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by rbowman
Post by Kickin' Ass and Takin' Names
TAPE BACKUPS!?!?!?!?!?
Tape backups went out with the Model T.
Right. So what do you use when you want to write out about 6TB of data, you
would prefer it didn't take days, and you want to move the archival data off
site?
Silly. Everyone uses IBM punch cards.
--
.
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
Lloyd E. Sponenburgh
2014-06-16 11:14:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stormin Mormon
Silly. Everyone uses IBM punch cards.
Of course!

(doing the math... 6TB... that's 82463372083.2 cards at 80 bytes per
card)

at about 7.5 mils thick each, thats a tiny stack 618475290.6 inches high,
or 51539607.6 feet, or 9761.3 miles high!

Darn! To think we used to store useful amounts of data on Hollerith
cards! Sorta changes the perspective on what's 'useful'.

LLoyd
Stormin Mormon
2014-06-16 11:20:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lloyd E. Sponenburgh
Post by Stormin Mormon
Silly. Everyone uses IBM punch cards.
Of course!
(doing the math... 6TB... that's 82463372083.2 cards at 80 bytes per
card)
at about 7.5 mils thick each, thats a tiny stack 618475290.6 inches high,
or 51539607.6 feet, or 9761.3 miles high!
Darn! To think we used to store useful amounts of data on Hollerith
cards! Sorta changes the perspective on what's 'useful'.
LLoyd
You're pretty quick with that abacus, fellah.
--
.
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
rbowman
2014-06-16 13:42:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stormin Mormon
Silly. Everyone uses IBM punch cards.
I don't know if they're still on cards but I could name a state where EBCDIC
still rules.
Scout
2014-06-16 19:34:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by rbowman
Post by Kickin' Ass and Takin' Names
TAPE BACKUPS!?!?!?!?!?
Tape backups went out with the Model T.
Right. So what do you use when you want to write out about 6TB of data, you
would prefer it didn't take days, and you want to move the archival data off
site?
Oh, and let's not forget you don't want to pay an arm and a leg for your
data backups.
Jim Wilkins
2014-06-16 20:25:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scout
Post by rbowman
Post by Kickin' Ass and Takin' Names
TAPE BACKUPS!?!?!?!?!?
Tape backups went out with the Model T.
Right. So what do you use when you want to write out about 6TB of data, you
would prefer it didn't take days, and you want to move the archival data off
site?
Oh, and let's not forget you don't want to pay an arm and a leg for
your data backups.
http://blogs.computerworld.com/data-storage/22114/tape-versus-disk-backup-war-exposed
Scout
2014-06-16 21:21:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Wilkins
Post by Scout
Post by rbowman
Post by Kickin' Ass and Takin' Names
TAPE BACKUPS!?!?!?!?!?
Tape backups went out with the Model T.
Right. So what do you use when you want to write out about 6TB of data, you
would prefer it didn't take days, and you want to move the archival data off
site?
Oh, and let's not forget you don't want to pay an arm and a leg for your
data backups.
http://blogs.computerworld.com/data-storage/22114/tape-versus-disk-backup-war-exposed
Yep, and this analysis is flawed in several aspects.

One it assumes that you are producing a single copy backup to be retained
only on-site.

Which normally is not the case.

Further, you normally are only going to be backing up on a regular basis
that data which has changed since the prior backup which means that 20T data
size represents a pretty massive total data storage capacity. How often you
would do a full backup depends entirely on how long you're willing to be
down for a full system recovery.

Then when you figure the need for cheap off-site backup storage (and more so
if it needs to be secure). Then again a HD based system becomes more
expensive yet. Since with a tape, I simply use my drives to produce a
redundant copy, which is moved off-site. With a HD based system I have to
have a whole new set of drives for every backup I wish to have. If you have
to retain your individual backups for any length of time, that means a HD
based system would become prohibitively expensive quite quickly.

Plus you can find alternative opinions.

http://pmi.offess.com/index.php/tape-versus-disk-backup/

Now, personally for really large scale data backup I consider the idea of a
Disk to Disk to Tape solution to have a number of benefits. Rapid on-site
data backup to your disk based solution, and your tape drives can then be
used to provide cheap copies for off-site and/or legacy copies for
regulatory, safety, and/or security reasons.
At which point the tape system is no longer limit to a small window, but
rather you can use the drives approaching a duty cycle of 24 hours per day.
Which reduces the cost of the necessary tape drives needed by about 2/3s.

Anyway, tape is king with 78% using it.... and probably because it's a more
economic solution.
Jim Wilkins
2014-06-16 22:49:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scout
Post by Jim Wilkins
http://blogs.computerworld.com/data-storage/22114/tape-versus-disk-backup-war-exposed
Yep, and this analysis is flawed in several aspects.
The last commercial tape backup I used was a DC100.

I'm following this because I took a class on data structures that
covered managing serial files and records in detail. Several of the
students disagreed with the instructor and their debate brought out
many practical considerations she had skipped.

I built a tape backup system for my homebrew wirewrapped computer that
used a cassette recorder and a home-made FSK modem. I never did give
it a good automatic directory structure; the file names, starting
points and sizes were kept on paper.

This gives the technical details and specs of LTO tapes, but only a
brief mention of the economics relative to spinning hard drives.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_Tape-Open

-jsw
news13
2014-06-16 06:27:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kickin' Ass and Takin' Names
On Sun, 15 Jun 2014 17:23:33 -0700, "raykeller"
Post by raykeller
He notes "All email servers in a professional organization use TAPE backup.
Meaning if all the above fails, you can restore the server using the
TAPE backups."
TAPE BACKUPS!?!?!?!?!?
Tape backups went out with the Model T.
Err, much of that cheap cloud data storage available is massive robotic
tape libraries. No one in a sane mind stores massive data on spinning
hard disks.
BeamMeUpScotty
2014-06-16 13:54:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by news13
Post by Kickin' Ass and Takin' Names
On Sun, 15 Jun 2014 17:23:33 -0700, "raykeller"
Post by raykeller
He notes "All email servers in a professional organization use TAPE backup.
Meaning if all the above fails, you can restore the server using the
TAPE backups."
TAPE BACKUPS!?!?!?!?!?
Tape backups went out with the Model T.
Err, much of that cheap cloud data storage available is massive robotic
tape libraries. No one in a sane mind stores massive data on spinning
hard disks.
And they aren't concerned with speed when retrieving the data, just cost
storing it so size and electricity count.
unknown
2014-06-16 14:17:03 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 16 Jun 2014 09:54:02 -0400, BeamMeUpScotty
Post by BeamMeUpScotty
Post by news13
Post by Kickin' Ass and Takin' Names
On Sun, 15 Jun 2014 17:23:33 -0700, "raykeller"
Post by raykeller
He notes "All email servers in a professional organization use TAPE backup.
Meaning if all the above fails, you can restore the server using the
TAPE backups."
TAPE BACKUPS!?!?!?!?!?
Tape backups went out with the Model T.
Err, much of that cheap cloud data storage available is massive robotic
tape libraries. No one in a sane mind stores massive data on spinning
hard disks.
And they aren't concerned with speed when retrieving the data, just cost
storing it so size and electricity count.
I wouldn't expect you to actually understand any of this, but speed of
retrieval is not the issue. Speed of backup is. You may be able
to put terabytes on tape, but it takes hours and hours to back up all
that data. Backing up lots of data when it's being used is
problematic, to say the least.
Klaus Schadenfreude
2014-06-16 16:18:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by unknown
On Mon, 16 Jun 2014 09:54:02 -0400, BeamMeUpScotty
Post by BeamMeUpScotty
Post by news13
Post by Kickin' Ass and Takin' Names
On Sun, 15 Jun 2014 17:23:33 -0700, "raykeller"
Post by raykeller
He notes "All email servers in a professional organization use TAPE backup.
Meaning if all the above fails, you can restore the server using the
TAPE backups."
TAPE BACKUPS!?!?!?!?!?
Tape backups went out with the Model T.
Err, much of that cheap cloud data storage available is massive robotic
tape libraries. No one in a sane mind stores massive data on spinning
hard disks.
And they aren't concerned with speed when retrieving the data, just cost
storing it so size and electricity count.
I wouldn't expect you to actually understand any of this, but speed of
retrieval is not the issue. Speed of backup is. You may be able
to put terabytes on tape, but it takes hours and hours to back up all
that data. Backing up lots of data when it's being used is
problematic, to say the least.
I'll bet you know as much about data backup as you do about aircraft
carriers.

"US aircraft carriers don't "pitch and roll" any more. They are too
big. Nimitz class carriers are over 1000 feet long. They are longer
than the swells so are unaffected. You can stand a pencil on the
table in the mess hall and it will stand upright while the ship is
underway."
-Deep Dudu, Navy Expert
Message-ID: <***@4ax.com>


"Based on the stupid shit you post and your apalling [sic] lack of
education I'm sure your kids are dummer [sic] than sheep."
-Professor Deep Dudu
BeamMeUpScotty
2014-06-16 19:49:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by unknown
On Mon, 16 Jun 2014 09:54:02 -0400, BeamMeUpScotty
Post by BeamMeUpScotty
Post by news13
Post by Kickin' Ass and Takin' Names
On Sun, 15 Jun 2014 17:23:33 -0700, "raykeller"
Post by raykeller
He notes "All email servers in a professional organization use TAPE backup.
Meaning if all the above fails, you can restore the server using the
TAPE backups."
TAPE BACKUPS!?!?!?!?!?
Tape backups went out with the Model T.
Err, much of that cheap cloud data storage available is massive robotic
tape libraries. No one in a sane mind stores massive data on spinning
hard disks.
And they aren't concerned with speed when retrieving the data, just cost
storing it so size and electricity count.
I wouldn't expect you to actually understand any of this, but speed of
retrieval is not the issue. Speed of backup is. You may be able
to put terabytes on tape, but it takes hours and hours to back up all
that data. Backing up lots of data when it's being used is
problematic, to say the least.
Oddly enough I understand it all I run web sites and have set up RAID
and back-up systems and years gone by I had cassette type tape back-ups
in PC's and I mirror and use external drives with back-up programs to
keep the data current, the program looks for changes and compares the
data and looks for file access dates then only adds or transfers the
changes on the disk drive to the back up rather than doing a full
Back-up continuous of the entire hard drive daily.

Doing it so that it only runs once a day and just writes new data that
has changed speeds it up, but the laws may require specific types of
back-up for the government data depending on how secret it is or how
important it is.
Scout
2014-06-16 19:49:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by unknown
On Mon, 16 Jun 2014 09:54:02 -0400, BeamMeUpScotty
Post by BeamMeUpScotty
Post by news13
Post by Kickin' Ass and Takin' Names
On Sun, 15 Jun 2014 17:23:33 -0700, "raykeller"
Post by raykeller
He notes "All email servers in a professional organization use TAPE backup.
Meaning if all the above fails, you can restore the server using the
TAPE backups."
TAPE BACKUPS!?!?!?!?!?
Tape backups went out with the Model T.
Err, much of that cheap cloud data storage available is massive robotic
tape libraries. No one in a sane mind stores massive data on spinning
hard disks.
And they aren't concerned with speed when retrieving the data, just cost
storing it so size and electricity count.
I wouldn't expect you to actually understand any of this, but speed of
retrieval is not the issue. Speed of backup is. You may be able
to put terabytes on tape, but it takes hours and hours to back up all
that data. Backing up lots of data when it's being used is
problematic, to say the least.
Poor Dudu, first he suggests that tape is a bad data storage medium, then a
few posts later he admits it's use as the data storage medium in data
centers.

*****Copy material from later post

That's right. Incrementals nightly (changed files only), full data
backups weekly, full OS drives monthly. And the last tape library I
worked on was 36 tapes. They make them...um... somewhat larger.

***End

Seems like Dudu is once again trying to talk like he actually knows what
he's talking about, but internally his comments show that he doesn't.
unknown
2014-06-16 21:00:26 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 16 Jun 2014 15:49:50 -0400, "Scout"
Post by Scout
Post by unknown
On Mon, 16 Jun 2014 09:54:02 -0400, BeamMeUpScotty
Post by BeamMeUpScotty
Post by news13
Post by Kickin' Ass and Takin' Names
On Sun, 15 Jun 2014 17:23:33 -0700, "raykeller"
Post by raykeller
He notes "All email servers in a professional organization use TAPE backup.
Meaning if all the above fails, you can restore the server using the
TAPE backups."
TAPE BACKUPS!?!?!?!?!?
Tape backups went out with the Model T.
Err, much of that cheap cloud data storage available is massive robotic
tape libraries. No one in a sane mind stores massive data on spinning
hard disks.
And they aren't concerned with speed when retrieving the data, just cost
storing it so size and electricity count.
I wouldn't expect you to actually understand any of this, but speed of
retrieval is not the issue. Speed of backup is. You may be able
to put terabytes on tape, but it takes hours and hours to back up all
that data. Backing up lots of data when it's being used is
problematic, to say the least.
Poor Dudu, first he suggests that tape is a bad data storage medium, then a
few posts later he admits it's use as the data storage medium in data
centers.
I never said tape is a bad data storage medium. You have me mixed up
with somebody else.
Post by Scout
*****Copy material from later post
That's right. Incrementals nightly (changed files only), full data
backups weekly, full OS drives monthly. And the last tape library I
worked on was 36 tapes. They make them...um... somewhat larger.
***End
Seems like Dudu is once again trying to talk like he actually knows what
he's talking about, but internally his comments show that he doesn't.
I used Arcserve for years to back up dozens of servers to an ADIC (now
Quantum) Scalar tape library. I had a relatively small one. Up to
36 LTOs but Quantum now makes units scalable to hundreds of tapes in
the petabyte range.
news13
2014-06-17 02:59:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by unknown
Post by BeamMeUpScotty
And they aren't concerned with speed when retrieving the data, just cost
storing it so size and electricity count.
I wouldn't expect you to actually understand any of this, but speed of
retrieval is not the issue. Speed of backup is. You may be able to
put terabytes on tape, but it takes hours and hours to back up all that
data.
Are you still running DDS on SCSI-1 cards? I used to have hardware that
just couldn't keep up. Hint shuffling tape drive are not good for the
tape.

Apparently SAS is the hot new beast these days onto LTO mechanisms. Check
out the through put speeds for the various versions on wikipedia.\ if
your really interested. Atherewise would you be interested in some QIC
tapes and drives?

As to how the cloud is going to manage it, that is worth $$$ in the
pocket, especially since a nice pteradata wrangler's job has just come up.
Post by unknown
Backing up lots of data when it's being used is problematic, to
say the least.
That is an entirely different problem with known solution methods.
misanthrope
2014-06-18 03:04:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by unknown
On Mon, 16 Jun 2014 09:54:02 -0400, BeamMeUpScotty
Post by BeamMeUpScotty
Post by news13
Post by Kickin' Ass and Takin' Names
On Sun, 15 Jun 2014 17:23:33 -0700, "raykeller"
Post by raykeller
He notes "All email servers in a professional organization use TAPE backup.
Meaning if all the above fails, you can restore the server using the
TAPE backups."
TAPE BACKUPS!?!?!?!?!?
Tape backups went out with the Model T.
Err, much of that cheap cloud data storage available is massive robotic
tape libraries. No one in a sane mind stores massive data on spinning
hard disks.
And they aren't concerned with speed when retrieving the data, just cost
storing it so size and electricity count.
I wouldn't expect you to actually understand any of this, but speed of
retrieval is not the issue. Speed of backup is. You may be able
to put terabytes on tape, but it takes hours and hours to back up all
that data. Backing up lots of data when it's being used is
problematic, to say the least.
How fast you can restore the data can be one of many important things to
consider in a backup scenario. After the Adic tape library threw a belt
almost a decade ago, we went to CDP for data and bare metal recovery to
recover servers. Since then we went to VMs with a disaster recovery
site at another branch office and 10 terabytes of VMs plus 6 terabytes
of data offsite. But it's all from the same backup repository that we
would restore a server or a file or a mail store or an sql database,
etc. Downtime while restoring the data or server can be mission
critical to your business. We use solid state drive arrays and fiber
because speed counts.
BeamMeUpScotty
2014-06-16 14:02:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by news13
Post by Kickin' Ass and Takin' Names
On Sun, 15 Jun 2014 17:23:33 -0700, "raykeller"
Post by raykeller
He notes "All email servers in a professional organization use TAPE backup.
Meaning if all the above fails, you can restore the server using the
TAPE backups."
TAPE BACKUPS!?!?!?!?!?
Tape backups went out with the Model T.
Err, much of that cheap cloud data storage available is massive robotic
tape libraries. No one in a sane mind stores massive data on spinning
hard disks.
And they aren't concerned with speed when retrieving the data, just cost
storing it so size and electricity count.


Oh, and the accessibility.... I imagine that the military guards against
an EMP by using something like an Optic drive so the data can't be lost
or demagnetized or corrupted with a static charge.

EMP
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_pulse
Scout
2014-06-16 20:02:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by BeamMeUpScotty
Post by news13
Post by Kickin' Ass and Takin' Names
On Sun, 15 Jun 2014 17:23:33 -0700, "raykeller"
Post by raykeller
He notes "All email servers in a professional organization use TAPE backup.
Meaning if all the above fails, you can restore the server using the
TAPE backups."
TAPE BACKUPS!?!?!?!?!?
Tape backups went out with the Model T.
Err, much of that cheap cloud data storage available is massive robotic
tape libraries. No one in a sane mind stores massive data on spinning
hard disks.
And they aren't concerned with speed when retrieving the data, just cost
storing it so size and electricity count.
Oh, and the accessibility.... I imagine that the military guards against
an EMP by using something like an Optic drive so the data can't be lost
or demagnetized or corrupted with a static charge.
EMP
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_pulse
Simply shield the data center, and have adequate filtering on input
power/data lines to control any EMP coming in via external lines. Say a nice
gas discharge arrestor between the inputs and your filter net work. If the
surge is of great enough magnitude the arrestor creates a low resistance
path to ground and effectively shorts your exterior lines to ground,
Naturally the filters are adequate to handle any surge that makes it past
the arrestors. For data, you simply 'drop offline', for power it blows the
breakers/fuses and you switch over to your internal UPS which allows you to
continue operations, or hold the system long enough for a smooth shutdown.

Of course, all this is a bit more expensive, but I would tend to bet that
critical data centers would use such measures.
BeamMeUpScotty
2014-06-16 23:20:29 UTC
Permalink
"BeamMeUpScotty"
Post by BeamMeUpScotty
Post by news13
Post by Kickin' Ass and Takin' Names
On Sun, 15 Jun 2014 17:23:33 -0700, "raykeller"
Post by raykeller
He notes "All email servers in a professional organization use TAPE backup.
Meaning if all the above fails, you can restore the server using the
TAPE backups."
TAPE BACKUPS!?!?!?!?!?
Tape backups went out with the Model T.
Err, much of that cheap cloud data storage available is massive robotic
tape libraries. No one in a sane mind stores massive data on spinning
hard disks.
And they aren't concerned with speed when retrieving the data, just cost
storing it so size and electricity count.
Oh, and the accessibility.... I imagine that the military guards against
an EMP by using something like an Optic drive so the data can't be lost
or demagnetized or corrupted with a static charge.
EMP
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_pulse
Simply shield the data center, and have adequate filtering on input
power/data lines to control any EMP coming in via external lines.
OK and size it all for the largest one you can imagine and the largest
solar flare while you are at it. I don't have a clue what that might take.
Say a
nice gas discharge arrestor between the inputs and your filter net work.
I worked on warning systems, the electronics, and they would get cooked
so the company bought little black sealed lightning suppressor and we
designed modifications with several MOV's in the lines. And we repaired
them, quite often.

Basically just a coil and a few MOV's and that was about it, they were
all but on fire when a good lightening strike got them.
If the surge is of great enough magnitude the arrestor creates a low
resistance path to ground and effectively shorts your exterior lines to
ground, Naturally the filters are adequate to handle any surge that
makes it past the arrestors.
We replaced a lot of circuit boards with holes burned in them despite
the suppression.
For data, you simply 'drop offline', for
power it blows the breakers/fuses and you switch over to your internal
UPS which allows you to continue operations, or hold the system long
enough for a smooth shutdown.
Yep I have a UPS here on my Linux system.
Of course, all this is a bit more expensive, but I would tend to bet
that critical data centers would use such measures.
That or use Optical for data they might lose by electromagnetic sabotage
or accidental.... does radiation and microwaves cause data loss on tape
and Hard drive/magnetic disk?

I had a degaussing tool (electromagnet) for the old tube TV sets that I
used to wipe disks that I wanted to make sure there was no data left on
them.

I'll have to get another one and name it "the IRS TOOL" it works for
them so they'll believe it when I tell them it happened to me, right?


Oooooppspssssss lost all that tax data so I don't owe any money...
NOTHING ANYONE CAN DO.
Lloyd E. Sponenburgh
2014-06-16 23:25:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by BeamMeUpScotty
I had a degaussing tool (electromagnet) for the old tube TV sets that I
used to wipe disks that I wanted to make sure there was no data left on
them.
I still have a magnetic tape eraser from the 80s. It's a useful degausser
for tools, which is the only reason I keep it. I have used it to degauss
shadow mask CRTs, as well. It takes longer than a big 'hula hoop'
degausser, but works. (Dad and I had a TV repair shop in the 1960s. Fun
stuff, then, when _everything_ electronic was 'magic' to the public.)

Lloyd
news13
2014-06-17 03:04:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lloyd E. Sponenburgh
(Dad and I had a TV repair shop in the
1960s. Fun stuff, then, when _everything_ electronic was 'magic' to the
public.)
And repairable. I still have a working stereo amp from that period that
is built on components wired between tags.
Scout
2014-06-17 01:15:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by BeamMeUpScotty
"BeamMeUpScotty"
Post by BeamMeUpScotty
Post by news13
Post by Kickin' Ass and Takin' Names
On Sun, 15 Jun 2014 17:23:33 -0700, "raykeller"
Post by raykeller
He notes "All email servers in a professional organization use TAPE backup.
Meaning if all the above fails, you can restore the server using the
TAPE backups."
TAPE BACKUPS!?!?!?!?!?
Tape backups went out with the Model T.
Err, much of that cheap cloud data storage available is massive robotic
tape libraries. No one in a sane mind stores massive data on spinning
hard disks.
And they aren't concerned with speed when retrieving the data, just cost
storing it so size and electricity count.
Oh, and the accessibility.... I imagine that the military guards against
an EMP by using something like an Optic drive so the data can't be lost
or demagnetized or corrupted with a static charge.
EMP
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_pulse
Simply shield the data center, and have adequate filtering on input
power/data lines to control any EMP coming in via external lines.
OK and size it all for the largest one you can imagine and the largest
solar flare while you are at it. I don't have a clue what that might take.
http://visibleearth.nasa.gov/view.php?id=55580

I suppose we could go up to the Super Nova classification of a solar flare,
but since we wouldn't survive whether the data does becomes pretty moot.
Post by BeamMeUpScotty
Say a
nice gas discharge arrestor between the inputs and your filter net work.
I worked on warning systems, the electronics, and they would get cooked
so the company bought little black sealed lightning suppressor and we
designed modifications with several MOV's in the lines. And we repaired
them, quite often.
Basically just a coil and a few MOV's and that was about it, they were
all but on fire when a good lightening strike got them.
MOVs are good, but of limited capacity. If you want to be able to handle a
really large surge, then you put a gas discharge suppressor between your
fuse/breakers and your filter network and if the surge is big enough it
ionizes the gas in the suppressor, creates a low resistance path to ground
and overloads the breaker/fuse breaking the conductor path and isolating
your input until the breaker/fuse is restored. Of course, if you want to
handle a really big surge then you rig a super wide gap contactor that opens
when the breaker trips and physically moves the conductor elements far
enough apart to prevent any possibility of arcing while possibly even
grounding the input side. Simply a matter of creating adequate isolation
from your system and the input while providing a low resistance path to
ground for the surge. It just costs money to do.
Post by BeamMeUpScotty
If the surge is of great enough magnitude the arrestor creates a low
resistance path to ground and effectively shorts your exterior lines to
ground, Naturally the filters are adequate to handle any surge that
makes it past the arrestors.
We replaced a lot of circuit boards with holes burned in them despite
the suppression.
Sounds like you needed more.
Post by BeamMeUpScotty
For data, you simply 'drop offline', for
power it blows the breakers/fuses and you switch over to your internal
UPS which allows you to continue operations, or hold the system long
enough for a smooth shutdown.
Yep I have a UPS here on my Linux system.
Of course, all this is a bit more expensive, but I would tend to bet
that critical data centers would use such measures.
That or use Optical for data they might lose by electromagnetic sabotage
or accidental.... does radiation and microwaves cause data loss on tape
and Hard drive/magnetic disk?
Optical has it's advantages, but it's just as subject to sabotage. Just heat
them up.
Post by BeamMeUpScotty
I had a degaussing tool (electromagnet) for the old tube TV sets that I
used to wipe disks that I wanted to make sure there was no data left on
them.
I'll have to get another one and name it "the IRS TOOL" it works for
them so they'll believe it when I tell them it happened to me, right?
Oooooppspssssss lost all that tax data so I don't owe any money...
NOTHING ANYONE CAN DO.
Not a bad idea....I suppose they could try to slap you with a 'destruction
of evidence' charge, but that only applies to your activities. You simply
need to insure that you either activate it before they serve the warrant, or
you insure that it's their action(s) that results in the data lose.
pyotr filipivich
2014-06-17 04:46:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scout
Post by BeamMeUpScotty
Post by Scout
Post by BeamMeUpScotty
Post by news13
Post by Kickin' Ass and Takin' Names
Post by raykeller
He notes "All email servers in a professional organization use TAPE backup.
Meaning if all the above fails, you can restore the server using the
TAPE backups."
TAPE BACKUPS!?!?!?!?!?
Tape backups went out with the Model T.
Err, much of that cheap cloud data storage available is massive robotic
tape libraries. No one in a sane mind stores massive data on spinning
hard disks.
And they aren't concerned with speed when retrieving the data, just cost
storing it so size and electricity count.
Oh, and the accessibility.... I imagine that the military guards against
an EMP by using something like an Optic drive so the data can't be lost
or demagnetized or corrupted with a static charge.
EMP
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_pulse
Simply shield the data center, and have adequate filtering on input
power/data lines to control any EMP coming in via external lines.
OK and size it all for the largest one you can imagine and the largest
solar flare while you are at it. I don't have a clue what that might take.
http://visibleearth.nasa.gov/view.php?id=55580
I suppose we could go up to the Super Nova classification of a solar flare,
but since we wouldn't survive whether the data does becomes pretty moot.
Ufda.

First, magnetic media is not affected by static, electrical
discharges, or power surges. The machinery might, but not the
MagMedia

Secondly, quite honestly, if you want "robust" electronics (drive
controllers, etc.) "older" is better. Tubes, not transistors.
Post by Scout
Post by BeamMeUpScotty
Post by Scout
Say a
nice gas discharge arrestor between the inputs and your filter net work.
I worked on warning systems, the electronics, and they would get cooked
so the company bought little black sealed lightning suppressor and we
designed modifications with several MOV's in the lines. And we repaired
them, quite often.
Basically just a coil and a few MOV's and that was about it, they were
all but on fire when a good lightening strike got them.
MOVs are good, but of limited capacity. If you want to be able to handle a
really large surge, then you put a gas discharge suppressor between your
fuse/breakers and your filter network and if the surge is big enough it
ionizes the gas in the suppressor, creates a low resistance path to ground
and overloads the breaker/fuse breaking the conductor path and isolating
your input until the breaker/fuse is restored. Of course, if you want to
handle a really big surge then you rig a super wide gap contactor that opens
when the breaker trips and physically moves the conductor elements far
enough apart to prevent any possibility of arcing while possibly even
grounding the input side. Simply a matter of creating adequate isolation
from your system and the input while providing a low resistance path to
ground for the surge. It just costs money to do.
If you really want to protect against electrical surges induced in
power lines - no power lines. Battery operated.

I recall a story which boiled down to, at a party, the guy was
talking about computers with someone in the service. The military guy
was using a UNIX based computer to run the classified programs on it.
¿how do you keep from being hacked? he was asked. The computer is in
a small, shielded room, inside a large building, with Marines at the
doors, and is run off batteries. Nothing goes in or out, without
being signed for.
Now, that is one extreme, and as you can imagine, does pose a
problem when it comes to communications, but ... it is secure.
--
pyotr filipivich
The fears of one class of men are not the measure of the rights of another.
-- George Bancroft
Stormin Mormon
2014-06-17 10:38:38 UTC
Permalink
"required by law to keep backups"

And how much respect for law do you find,
in this admin and the elected people?
--
.
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
Jim Wilkins
2014-06-17 12:20:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by pyotr filipivich
I recall a story which boiled down to, at a party, the guy was
talking about computers with someone in the service. The military guy
was using a UNIX based computer to run the classified programs on it.
¿how do you keep from being hacked? he was asked. The computer is in
a small, shielded room, inside a large building, with Marines at the
doors, and is run off batteries. Nothing goes in or out, without
being signed for.
Now, that is one extreme, and as you can imagine, does pose a
problem when it comes to communications, but ... it is secure.
--
pyotr filipivich
The military's secure networking capability was mature and very solid
when I entered that field in 1970. The weakness is in personnel, not
technology.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Anthony_Walker

The tech dates from WW2:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIGSALY
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIGABA

FCC Class B is a civilian version to study if you are interested in
learning more.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unintentional_radiator
The filtering that keeps junk from getting out also prevents external
noise from getting in.

I have some aftermarket laptop power adapters that belch out enough
broadband noise to jam a wireless mouse. My spectrum analyzer displays
their RF emissions the way an oscilloscope shows digital and analog.
Without one you are just guessing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spectrum_analyzer

This is the more complex instrument you need to design and test
communications circuits:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_analyzer_(electrical)
It injects a signal that sweeps across the frequency band and shows
how the circuit responds. That Smith Chart display shows how a (for
example) poorly designed transmission line's impedance varies with
frequency. The simple explanation is that the center is 50 Ohms, the X
axis is pure resistance (amplitude, real power) and the Y is
capacitance / inductance (phase shift, apparent power, SWR). You read
the frequency by moving the marker along the yellow line with the knob
at the top. The goal is to minimize the size of the loops.

It will also show you how well the circuit rejects out-of-band
interference. The spectrum analyzer only passively shows how much
external noise gets through.

-n7q2d3
Lloyd E. Sponenburgh
2014-06-17 12:33:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Wilkins
That Smith Chart display shows how a (for
example) poorly designed transmission line's impedance varies with
frequency.
Jim,
FWIW, the term "transmission line" usually implies a tuned circuit in
order to achieve a specific impedance across a particular (fairly narrow)
range of frequencies.

It ordinarily _would_ display different impedances at different
frequencies, and that alone does not imply that it was 'poorly designed'.

All it normally implies is that it won't display the desired impedance
except at the design frequency.


LLoyd
Jim Wilkins
2014-06-17 13:24:23 UTC
Permalink
news:lnpbpd$1bc
Post by Jim Wilkins
That Smith Chart display shows how a (for
example) poorly designed transmission line's impedance varies with
frequency.
Jim,
FWIW, the term "transmission line" usually implies a tuned circuit in
order to achieve a specific impedance across a particular (fairly narrow)
range of frequencies.
It ordinarily _would_ display different impedances at different
frequencies, and that alone does not imply that it was 'poorly
designed'.
All it normally implies is that it won't display the desired
impedance
except at the design frequency.
LLoyd
A good transmission line such as RG-6 cable TV coax or a scope probe
has constant properties across a very wide bandwidth, and gives a
Smith chart showing a point in the center or or very small circle
around it. They are intentionally NOT tuned except for matching
networks at the ends that compensate for a necessarily mismatched
load, like the spiral coil on a mobile whip antenna.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transmission_line

The 0.141" semi-rigid stuff I used for internal SMA connections was
good to over 20 GHz.

Try writing a simple explanation of a Smith chart and complex
impedance yourself. It's relevant to us as the Power Factor of a
motor.

-jsw
Jim Wilkins
2014-06-17 16:56:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Wilkins
The 0.141" semi-rigid stuff I used for internal SMA connections was
good to over 20 GHz.
-jsw
Here it is, the 0.141" low-loss semi-rigid:
http://www.src-cables.com/semi_rigid_coax_cable.php
The attenuation in a few feet of it was less than 1dB at the GPS
frequency of 1.57542 GHz.
-jsw
BeamMeUpScotty
2014-06-17 16:37:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by pyotr filipivich
Post by Scout
Post by BeamMeUpScotty
Post by Scout
Post by BeamMeUpScotty
Post by news13
Post by Kickin' Ass and Takin' Names
Post by raykeller
He notes "All email servers in a professional organization use TAPE backup.
Meaning if all the above fails, you can restore the server using the
TAPE backups."
TAPE BACKUPS!?!?!?!?!?
Tape backups went out with the Model T.
Err, much of that cheap cloud data storage available is massive robotic
tape libraries. No one in a sane mind stores massive data on spinning
hard disks.
And they aren't concerned with speed when retrieving the data, just cost
storing it so size and electricity count.
Oh, and the accessibility.... I imagine that the military guards against
an EMP by using something like an Optic drive so the data can't be lost
or demagnetized or corrupted with a static charge.
EMP
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_pulse
Simply shield the data center, and have adequate filtering on input
power/data lines to control any EMP coming in via external lines.
OK and size it all for the largest one you can imagine and the largest
solar flare while you are at it. I don't have a clue what that might take.
http://visibleearth.nasa.gov/view.php?id=55580
I suppose we could go up to the Super Nova classification of a solar flare,
but since we wouldn't survive whether the data does becomes pretty moot.
Ufda.
First, magnetic media is not affected by static, electrical
discharges, or power surges. The machinery might, but not the
MagMedia
Secondly, quite honestly, if you want "robust" electronics (drive
controllers, etc.) "older" is better. Tubes, not transistors.
Post by Scout
Post by BeamMeUpScotty
Post by Scout
Say a
nice gas discharge arrestor between the inputs and your filter net work.
I worked on warning systems, the electronics, and they would get cooked
so the company bought little black sealed lightning suppressor and we
designed modifications with several MOV's in the lines. And we repaired
them, quite often.
Basically just a coil and a few MOV's and that was about it, they were
all but on fire when a good lightening strike got them.
MOVs are good, but of limited capacity. If you want to be able to handle a
really large surge, then you put a gas discharge suppressor between your
fuse/breakers and your filter network and if the surge is big enough it
ionizes the gas in the suppressor, creates a low resistance path to ground
and overloads the breaker/fuse breaking the conductor path and isolating
your input until the breaker/fuse is restored. Of course, if you want to
handle a really big surge then you rig a super wide gap contactor that opens
when the breaker trips and physically moves the conductor elements far
enough apart to prevent any possibility of arcing while possibly even
grounding the input side. Simply a matter of creating adequate isolation
from your system and the input while providing a low resistance path to
ground for the surge. It just costs money to do.
If you really want to protect against electrical surges induced in
power lines - no power lines. Battery operated.
Provided it's all shielded from the EMP or solar flare or lightening
strikes etc.... Usually the battery is hooked to a charger or solar
charger or Wind generator that is outside and subjected to all the
things that cause spikes in the system and then what... I don't know
maybe redundant suppression for the charging lines and then more after
the batteries?

At one time I heard they could send data over the actual electrical grid
and planned to use that technology for reading smart meters on your
house. I'm not up to date but I wonder how far that idea went?
Lloyd E. Sponenburgh
2014-06-17 16:55:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by BeamMeUpScotty
At one time I heard they could send data over the actual electrical grid
and planned to use that technology for reading smart meters on your
house. I'm not up to date but I wonder how far that idea went?
Most of them went to WIFI, and read the meters by just driving down the
road.

They retro-fitted our meters about a year ago.
There IS a 'short haul' data transmission on the power lines from the
meter to the road pole.

For my shop, that's only about 50'. For my home, it's over 450'.

Lloyd

Lloyd
Jim Wilkins
2014-06-17 17:41:06 UTC
Permalink
"BeamMeUpScotty"
Post by BeamMeUpScotty
At one time I heard they could send data over the actual electrical grid
and planned to use that technology for reading smart meters on your
house. I'm not up to date but I wonder how far that idea went?
They can but it isn't all that reliable. SCR dimmers and speed
controls create impulse noise, the pole transformers block higher
frequencies and all the caps across the line in household surge
suppressors and switching power supplies absorb the signal.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powerline_communication

We are due for electronic meters which can be read from a vehicle
driving by. They aren't networked to each other and to Big Brother
like Smart Meters.
http://www.psnh.com/CustomerSupport/Home/Automated-Meter-Reading-FAQs.aspx

-jsw
Bert
2014-06-17 17:47:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by BeamMeUpScotty
At one time I heard they could send data over the actual electrical grid
and planned to use that technology for reading smart meters on your
house. I'm not up to date but I wonder how far that idea went?
Broadband over power lines (BPL) is a method of power line
communication that allows relatively high-speed digital data
transmission over the public electric power distribution wiring.
BPL uses higher frequencies, a wider frequency range and
different technologies from other forms of power-line
communications to provide high-rate communication over longer
distances. BPL uses frequencies which are part of the radio
spectrum allocated to over-the-air communication services
therefore the prevention of interference to, and from, these
services is a very important factor in designing BPL systems .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broadband_over_power_lines

Every place it's been tried, the interference to licensed radio services
was extreme. It's still being tried in a few cities, but it's mostly
abandoned in the US.
--
***@iphouse.com St. Paul, MN
Scout
2014-06-17 22:39:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by BeamMeUpScotty
Post by pyotr filipivich
Post by Scout
Post by BeamMeUpScotty
Post by Scout
Post by BeamMeUpScotty
Post by news13
Post by Kickin' Ass and Takin' Names
Post by raykeller
He notes "All email servers in a professional organization use
TAPE
backup.
Meaning if all the above fails, you can restore the server using the
TAPE backups."
TAPE BACKUPS!?!?!?!?!?
Tape backups went out with the Model T.
Err, much of that cheap cloud data storage available is massive robotic
tape libraries. No one in a sane mind stores massive data on spinning
hard disks.
And they aren't concerned with speed when retrieving the data, just cost
storing it so size and electricity count.
Oh, and the accessibility.... I imagine that the military guards against
an EMP by using something like an Optic drive so the data can't be lost
or demagnetized or corrupted with a static charge.
EMP
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_pulse
Simply shield the data center, and have adequate filtering on input
power/data lines to control any EMP coming in via external lines.
OK and size it all for the largest one you can imagine and the largest
solar flare while you are at it. I don't have a clue what that might take.
http://visibleearth.nasa.gov/view.php?id=55580
I suppose we could go up to the Super Nova classification of a solar flare,
but since we wouldn't survive whether the data does becomes pretty moot.
Ufda.
First, magnetic media is not affected by static, electrical
discharges, or power surges. The machinery might, but not the
MagMedia
Secondly, quite honestly, if you want "robust" electronics (drive
controllers, etc.) "older" is better. Tubes, not transistors.
Post by Scout
Post by BeamMeUpScotty
Post by Scout
Say a
nice gas discharge arrestor between the inputs and your filter net work.
I worked on warning systems, the electronics, and they would get cooked
so the company bought little black sealed lightning suppressor and we
designed modifications with several MOV's in the lines. And we repaired
them, quite often.
Basically just a coil and a few MOV's and that was about it, they were
all but on fire when a good lightening strike got them.
MOVs are good, but of limited capacity. If you want to be able to handle a
really large surge, then you put a gas discharge suppressor between your
fuse/breakers and your filter network and if the surge is big enough it
ionizes the gas in the suppressor, creates a low resistance path to ground
and overloads the breaker/fuse breaking the conductor path and isolating
your input until the breaker/fuse is restored. Of course, if you want to
handle a really big surge then you rig a super wide gap contactor that opens
when the breaker trips and physically moves the conductor elements far
enough apart to prevent any possibility of arcing while possibly even
grounding the input side. Simply a matter of creating adequate isolation
from your system and the input while providing a low resistance path to
ground for the surge. It just costs money to do.
If you really want to protect against electrical surges induced in
power lines - no power lines. Battery operated.
Provided it's all shielded from the EMP or solar flare or lightening
strikes etc.... Usually the battery is hooked to a charger or solar
charger or Wind generator that is outside and subjected to all the
things that cause spikes in the system and then what... I don't know
maybe redundant suppression for the charging lines and then more after
the batteries?
At one time I heard they could send data over the actual electrical grid
and planned to use that technology for reading smart meters on your
house. I'm not up to date but I wonder how far that idea went?
Fully developed and on-line. Hell they can now shut down, or turn on, power
to individual homes from the central office. No need for anyone to even come
out anymore.
Gunner Asch
2014-06-21 06:21:50 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 17 Jun 2014 12:37:46 -0400, BeamMeUpScotty
Post by BeamMeUpScotty
Post by pyotr filipivich
Post by Scout
Post by BeamMeUpScotty
Post by Scout
Post by BeamMeUpScotty
Post by news13
Post by Kickin' Ass and Takin' Names
Post by raykeller
He notes "All email servers in a professional organization use TAPE backup.
Meaning if all the above fails, you can restore the server using the
TAPE backups."
TAPE BACKUPS!?!?!?!?!?
Tape backups went out with the Model T.
Err, much of that cheap cloud data storage available is massive robotic
tape libraries. No one in a sane mind stores massive data on spinning
hard disks.
And they aren't concerned with speed when retrieving the data, just cost
storing it so size and electricity count.
Oh, and the accessibility.... I imagine that the military guards against
an EMP by using something like an Optic drive so the data can't be lost
or demagnetized or corrupted with a static charge.
EMP
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_pulse
Simply shield the data center, and have adequate filtering on input
power/data lines to control any EMP coming in via external lines.
OK and size it all for the largest one you can imagine and the largest
solar flare while you are at it. I don't have a clue what that might take.
http://visibleearth.nasa.gov/view.php?id=55580
I suppose we could go up to the Super Nova classification of a solar flare,
but since we wouldn't survive whether the data does becomes pretty moot.
Ufda.
First, magnetic media is not affected by static, electrical
discharges, or power surges. The machinery might, but not the
MagMedia
Secondly, quite honestly, if you want "robust" electronics (drive
controllers, etc.) "older" is better. Tubes, not transistors.
Post by Scout
Post by BeamMeUpScotty
Post by Scout
Say a
nice gas discharge arrestor between the inputs and your filter net work.
I worked on warning systems, the electronics, and they would get cooked
so the company bought little black sealed lightning suppressor and we
designed modifications with several MOV's in the lines. And we repaired
them, quite often.
Basically just a coil and a few MOV's and that was about it, they were
all but on fire when a good lightening strike got them.
MOVs are good, but of limited capacity. If you want to be able to handle a
really large surge, then you put a gas discharge suppressor between your
fuse/breakers and your filter network and if the surge is big enough it
ionizes the gas in the suppressor, creates a low resistance path to ground
and overloads the breaker/fuse breaking the conductor path and isolating
your input until the breaker/fuse is restored. Of course, if you want to
handle a really big surge then you rig a super wide gap contactor that opens
when the breaker trips and physically moves the conductor elements far
enough apart to prevent any possibility of arcing while possibly even
grounding the input side. Simply a matter of creating adequate isolation
from your system and the input while providing a low resistance path to
ground for the surge. It just costs money to do.
If you really want to protect against electrical surges induced in
power lines - no power lines. Battery operated.
Provided it's all shielded from the EMP or solar flare or lightening
strikes etc.... Usually the battery is hooked to a charger or solar
charger or Wind generator that is outside and subjected to all the
things that cause spikes in the system and then what... I don't know
maybe redundant suppression for the charging lines and then more after
the batteries?
At one time I heard they could send data over the actual electrical grid
and planned to use that technology for reading smart meters on your
house. I'm not up to date but I wonder how far that idea went?
My electric meter has that technology. They dont use a meter reader
anymore.

Same with my gas meter. No idea how that is transmitted..it comes in
in non- metallic pipe


"Libertarianism IS fascism... Fascism is corporate government – a Libertarian’s wet dream"
Tala Brandeis
Owner at Tala Brandeis Associates"
news13
2014-06-23 07:01:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gunner Asch
My electric meter has that technology. They dont use a meter reader
anymore.
Wifi and the meter reader just drives down the street and interogates the
meter
Post by Gunner Asch
Same with my gas meter. No idea how that is transmitted..it comes in in
non- metallic pipe
Probably the same, but there would have to be some power source to record
and respond.
pyotr filipivich
2014-06-22 03:40:26 UTC
Permalink
BeamMeUpScotty
[snip]
Post by BeamMeUpScotty
Post by pyotr filipivich
Post by Scout
Post by BeamMeUpScotty
Say a
nice gas discharge arrestor between the inputs and your filter net work.
I worked on warning systems, the electronics, and they would get cooked
so the company bought little black sealed lightning suppressor and we
designed modifications with several MOV's in the lines. And we repaired
them, quite often.
Basically just a coil and a few MOV's and that was about it, they were
all but on fire when a good lightening strike got them.
MOVs are good, but of limited capacity. If you want to be able to handle a
really large surge, then you put a gas discharge suppressor between your
fuse/breakers and your filter network and if the surge is big enough it
ionizes the gas in the suppressor, creates a low resistance path to ground
and overloads the breaker/fuse breaking the conductor path and isolating
your input until the breaker/fuse is restored. Of course, if you want to
handle a really big surge then you rig a super wide gap contactor that opens
when the breaker trips and physically moves the conductor elements far
enough apart to prevent any possibility of arcing while possibly even
grounding the input side. Simply a matter of creating adequate isolation
from your system and the input while providing a low resistance path to
ground for the surge. It just costs money to do.
If you really want to protect against electrical surges induced in
power lines - no power lines. Battery operated.
Provided it's all shielded from the EMP or solar flare or lightening
strikes etc.... Usually the battery is hooked to a charger or solar
charger or Wind generator that is outside and subjected to all the
things that cause spikes in the system and then what... I don't know
maybe redundant suppression for the charging lines and then more after
the batteries?
That is not a "battery operated system". That is a "battery
augmented system." What I would suggest, for maximum security, it a
number of batteries, which get physically "swapped out", so that the
battery which is powering the computer is not connected to an external
wire which could serve as an antenna for an EMP or lightening strike.
--
pyotr filipivich
The fears of one class of men are not the measure of the rights of another.
-- George Bancroft
Jim Wilkins
2014-06-22 11:46:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by pyotr filipivich
That is not a "battery operated system". That is a "battery
augmented system." What I would suggest, for maximum security, it a
number of batteries, which get physically "swapped out", so that the
battery which is powering the computer is not connected to an
external
wire which could serve as an antenna for an EMP or lightening
strike.
--
pyotr filipivich
Lightning struck the pole in front of my house and fried the old
carbon phone line protectors, but didn't damage the cheap electronic
phone or anything else. The new ones are gas discharge tubes, like big
Neon bulbs.

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aeromagazine/articles/2012_q4/4/
"Significant events are rare because of the lightning protection
engineered into the airplane and its sensitive electronic components."

-jsw
news13
2014-06-23 07:05:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Wilkins
"Significant events are rare because of the lightning protection
engineered into the airplane and its sensitive electronic components."
An airplane is really an isolated body and a metal body acts as a bit of
a shield for the very rare occassion of a discharge flowing though it.
news13
2014-06-23 07:02:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by pyotr filipivich
That is not a "battery operated system". That is a "battery
augmented system." What I would suggest, for maximum security, it a
number of batteries, which get physically "swapped out", so that the
battery which is powering the computer is not connected to an external
wire which could serve as an antenna for an EMP or lightening strike.
MOV.
Scout
2014-06-17 22:30:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by pyotr filipivich
Post by Scout
Post by BeamMeUpScotty
Post by Scout
Post by BeamMeUpScotty
Post by news13
Post by Kickin' Ass and Takin' Names
Post by raykeller
He notes "All email servers in a professional organization use TAPE backup.
Meaning if all the above fails, you can restore the server using the
TAPE backups."
TAPE BACKUPS!?!?!?!?!?
Tape backups went out with the Model T.
Err, much of that cheap cloud data storage available is massive robotic
tape libraries. No one in a sane mind stores massive data on spinning
hard disks.
And they aren't concerned with speed when retrieving the data, just cost
storing it so size and electricity count.
Oh, and the accessibility.... I imagine that the military guards against
an EMP by using something like an Optic drive so the data can't be lost
or demagnetized or corrupted with a static charge.
EMP
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_pulse
Simply shield the data center, and have adequate filtering on input
power/data lines to control any EMP coming in via external lines.
OK and size it all for the largest one you can imagine and the largest
solar flare while you are at it. I don't have a clue what that might take.
http://visibleearth.nasa.gov/view.php?id=55580
I suppose we could go up to the Super Nova classification of a solar flare,
but since we wouldn't survive whether the data does becomes pretty moot.
Ufda.
First, magnetic media is not affected by static, electrical
discharges, or power surges. The machinery might, but not the
MagMedia
Perhaps, but you could easily corrupt your data if the media is being
written to at the moment that the electronics are fried.
Post by pyotr filipivich
Secondly, quite honestly, if you want "robust" electronics (drive
controllers, etc.) "older" is better. Tubes, not transistors.
To a large extent that's true, but it also means a massive step backwards in
overall performance. Far easier to simply shield your electronics.
Post by pyotr filipivich
Post by Scout
Post by BeamMeUpScotty
Post by Scout
Say a
nice gas discharge arrestor between the inputs and your filter net work.
I worked on warning systems, the electronics, and they would get cooked
so the company bought little black sealed lightning suppressor and we
designed modifications with several MOV's in the lines. And we repaired
them, quite often.
Basically just a coil and a few MOV's and that was about it, they were
all but on fire when a good lightening strike got them.
MOVs are good, but of limited capacity. If you want to be able to handle a
really large surge, then you put a gas discharge suppressor between your
fuse/breakers and your filter network and if the surge is big enough it
ionizes the gas in the suppressor, creates a low resistance path to ground
and overloads the breaker/fuse breaking the conductor path and isolating
your input until the breaker/fuse is restored. Of course, if you want to
handle a really big surge then you rig a super wide gap contactor that opens
when the breaker trips and physically moves the conductor elements far
enough apart to prevent any possibility of arcing while possibly even
grounding the input side. Simply a matter of creating adequate isolation
from your system and the input while providing a low resistance path to
ground for the surge. It just costs money to do.
If you really want to protect against electrical surges induced in
power lines - no power lines. Battery operated.
So what size battery do you think it would take to operate a large scale
data center?
Post by pyotr filipivich
I recall a story which boiled down to, at a party, the guy was
talking about computers with someone in the service. The military guy
was using a UNIX based computer to run the classified programs on it.
¿how do you keep from being hacked? he was asked. The computer is in
a small, shielded room, inside a large building, with Marines at the
doors, and is run off batteries. Nothing goes in or out, without
being signed for.
Now, that is one extreme, and as you can imagine, does pose a
problem when it comes to communications, but ... it is secure.
Yep.
Gunner Asch
2014-06-17 00:46:21 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 16 Jun 2014 16:02:55 -0400, "Scout"
Post by Scout
Post by BeamMeUpScotty
Post by news13
Post by Kickin' Ass and Takin' Names
On Sun, 15 Jun 2014 17:23:33 -0700, "raykeller"
Post by raykeller
He notes "All email servers in a professional organization use TAPE backup.
Meaning if all the above fails, you can restore the server using the
TAPE backups."
TAPE BACKUPS!?!?!?!?!?
Tape backups went out with the Model T.
Err, much of that cheap cloud data storage available is massive robotic
tape libraries. No one in a sane mind stores massive data on spinning
hard disks.
And they aren't concerned with speed when retrieving the data, just cost
storing it so size and electricity count.
Oh, and the accessibility.... I imagine that the military guards against
an EMP by using something like an Optic drive so the data can't be lost
or demagnetized or corrupted with a static charge.
EMP
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_pulse
Simply shield the data center, and have adequate filtering on input
power/data lines to control any EMP coming in via external lines. Say a nice
gas discharge arrestor between the inputs and your filter net work. If the
surge is of great enough magnitude the arrestor creates a low resistance
path to ground and effectively shorts your exterior lines to ground,
Naturally the filters are adequate to handle any surge that makes it past
the arrestors. For data, you simply 'drop offline', for power it blows the
breakers/fuses and you switch over to your internal UPS which allows you to
continue operations, or hold the system long enough for a smooth shutdown.
Of course, all this is a bit more expensive, but I would tend to bet that
critical data centers would use such measures.
Data should..should be converted to optical THEN brought into the
plant.

Its far harder to shield data lines than power lines...so one makes
sure the transmission media wont carry EMP



Gunner

"Libertarianism IS fascism... Fascism is corporate government – a Libertarian’s wet dream"
Tala Brandeis
Owner at Tala Brandeis Associates"
Scout
2014-06-17 01:49:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gunner Asch
On Mon, 16 Jun 2014 16:02:55 -0400, "Scout"
"BeamMeUpScotty"
Post by BeamMeUpScotty
Post by news13
Post by Kickin' Ass and Takin' Names
On Sun, 15 Jun 2014 17:23:33 -0700, "raykeller"
Post by raykeller
He notes "All email servers in a professional organization use TAPE backup.
Meaning if all the above fails, you can restore the server using the
TAPE backups."
TAPE BACKUPS!?!?!?!?!?
Tape backups went out with the Model T.
Err, much of that cheap cloud data storage available is massive robotic
tape libraries. No one in a sane mind stores massive data on spinning
hard disks.
And they aren't concerned with speed when retrieving the data, just cost
storing it so size and electricity count.
Oh, and the accessibility.... I imagine that the military guards against
an EMP by using something like an Optic drive so the data can't be lost
or demagnetized or corrupted with a static charge.
EMP
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_pulse
Simply shield the data center, and have adequate filtering on input
power/data lines to control any EMP coming in via external lines. Say a nice
gas discharge arrestor between the inputs and your filter net work. If the
surge is of great enough magnitude the arrestor creates a low resistance
path to ground and effectively shorts your exterior lines to ground,
Naturally the filters are adequate to handle any surge that makes it past
the arrestors. For data, you simply 'drop offline', for power it blows the
breakers/fuses and you switch over to your internal UPS which allows you to
continue operations, or hold the system long enough for a smooth shutdown.
Of course, all this is a bit more expensive, but I would tend to bet that
critical data centers would use such measures.
Data should..should be converted to optical THEN brought into the
plant.
Its far harder to shield data lines than power lines...so one makes
sure the transmission media wont carry EMP
Sure, which is easy to do with fiber optic, but still you want to shield the
lines for spikes of other sorts so you don't have to keep replacing the
converts.
news13
2014-06-17 03:08:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scout
Sure, which is easy to do with fiber optic, but still you want to shield
the lines for spikes of other sorts so you don't have to keep replacing
the converts.
optical fibre, what spikes?

My first real engineers task was working out whether some long phone
lines had to be fitted with high voltage protection in case a nearby high
voltage transmission tower came down. the boss held off for two days
before giving me the practical handbook that did all the hard maths to an
accepted formula for working it all out. Mutter.
Stormin Mormon
2014-06-16 11:19:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kickin' Ass and Takin' Names
TAPE BACKUPS!?!?!?!?!?
Tape backups went out with the Model T.
Explains the VA thing, the doctors get to work in
Model T, and takes longer.
--
.
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
Guy Fawkes
2014-06-17 00:49:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kickin' Ass and Takin' Names
On Sun, 15 Jun 2014 17:23:33 -0700, "raykeller"
Post by raykeller
He notes "All email servers in a professional organization use TAPE
backup. Meaning if all the above fails, you can restore the server using
the TAPE backups."
TAPE BACKUPS!?!?!?!?!?
Tape backups went out with the Model T.
You must really be a dumbass. They are required BY LAW to keep copies of
all emails. Desperation leaves a stench.
--
When the government is no longer constrained by the laws of the land, then
neither are the people.
BeamMeUpScotty
2014-06-17 16:44:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Guy Fawkes
Post by Kickin' Ass and Takin' Names
On Sun, 15 Jun 2014 17:23:33 -0700, "raykeller"
Post by raykeller
He notes "All email servers in a professional organization use TAPE
backup. Meaning if all the above fails, you can restore the server using
the TAPE backups."
TAPE BACKUPS!?!?!?!?!?
Tape backups went out with the Model T.
You must really be a dumbass. They are required BY LAW to keep copies of
all emails. Desperation leaves a stench.
NIXON left gaps (erased the audio) on the Watergate Tapes and that was
the final STRAW AS I REMEMBER IT. Nixon was left with the choice of
resign or be impeached.

Obama losing IRS e-mails id just as bad.
Scout
2014-06-17 22:42:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by BeamMeUpScotty
Post by Guy Fawkes
Post by Kickin' Ass and Takin' Names
On Sun, 15 Jun 2014 17:23:33 -0700, "raykeller"
Post by raykeller
He notes "All email servers in a professional organization use TAPE
backup. Meaning if all the above fails, you can restore the server using
the TAPE backups."
TAPE BACKUPS!?!?!?!?!?
Tape backups went out with the Model T.
You must really be a dumbass. They are required BY LAW to keep copies of
all emails. Desperation leaves a stench.
NIXON left gaps (erased the audio) on the Watergate Tapes and that was
the final STRAW AS I REMEMBER IT. Nixon was left with the choice of
resign or be impeached.
Obama losing IRS e-mails id just as bad.
Particularly since they couldn't be lost.

There are at LEAST 3 redundant copies.

IRS.
White House
NSA
Jim Wilkins
2014-06-17 23:47:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scout
...
There are at LEAST 3 redundant copies.
IRS.
White House
NSA
KGB
BeamMeUpScotty
2014-06-17 23:54:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scout
...
There are at LEAST 3 redundant copies.
IRS.
White House
NSA
KGB
Maybe some copies on Snowden's laptop.... they want him real bad so he
has something. It has to be bad for Obama because they want Snowden and
they don't want 5 Taliban terrorists that kill Americans. Obama either
thinks more of his secrets than he does our lives or He's even dumber
than we think.



This is proof that Obama is a Narcissist and a Sociopath who could care
less how many people die as long as he gets what he wants.
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------

*This e-mail was scanned by the NSA*
And was found to be infected with language used by the TEA PARTY,
bullies, racists and groups on Obama's specified enemies list for the
IRS - this language does not meet the Community Organizer Standards of
acceptable communications within the Socialist States Of America...
Antispyware protection is futile and your personal data has been
assimilated @ http://www.NSA.gov
--------------------------------------------------------------------

*Rumination*

#19 - Deciding how much Socialism is too much, is like deciding how much
dog shit in your ice cream is too much.
Jim Wilkins
2014-06-18 00:11:15 UTC
Permalink
"BeamMeUpScotty"
Post by BeamMeUpScotty
Post by Scout
...
There are at LEAST 3 redundant copies.
IRS.
White House
NSA
KGB
Maybe some copies on Snowden's laptop.... they want him real bad so he
has something. It has to be bad for Obama because they want Snowden and
they don't want 5 Taliban terrorists that kill Americans. Obama either
thinks more of his secrets than he does our lives or He's even
dumber
than we think.
The abbreviation is now SVR, not KGB. I can't wind my tongue up tight
enough to pronounce the full name.
benj
2014-06-18 00:28:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by BeamMeUpScotty
Post by Scout
...
There are at LEAST 3 redundant copies.
IRS.
White House
NSA
KGB
Maybe some copies on Snowden's laptop.... they want him real bad so he
has something. It has to be bad for Obama because they want Snowden and
they don't want 5 Taliban terrorists that kill Americans. Obama either
thinks more of his secrets than he does our lives or He's even dumber
than we think.
Two excellent theories either one or both of which would be correct!
rbowman
2014-06-18 02:44:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scout
...
There are at LEAST 3 redundant copies.
IRS.
White House
NSA
KGB
I would truly love to see that: Putin telling the world "Oh, by the way, we
found those emails you thought you lost."
Scout
2014-06-18 02:55:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by rbowman
Post by Scout
...
There are at LEAST 3 redundant copies.
IRS.
White House
NSA
KGB
I would truly love to see that: Putin telling the world "Oh, by the way, we
found those emails you thought you lost."
Yea, that would be a hoot.
BeamMeUpScotty
2014-06-18 14:27:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scout
Post by rbowman
Post by Scout
...
There are at LEAST 3 redundant copies.
IRS.
White House
NSA
KGB
I would truly love to see that: Putin telling the world "Oh, by the way, we
found those emails you thought you lost."
Yea, that would be a hoot.
Putin could have the KGB post them on WikiLeaks....
Stormin Mormon
2014-06-19 11:45:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by BeamMeUpScotty
Post by Scout
Post by rbowman
I would truly love to see that: Putin telling the world "Oh, by the way, we
found those emails you thought you lost."
Yea, that would be a hoot.
Putin could have the KGB post them on WikiLeaks....
Yes, I'd sure love to see that. Or maybe the
Chinese have a copy?
--
.
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
BeamMeUpScotty
2014-06-19 13:11:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stormin Mormon
Post by BeamMeUpScotty
Post by Scout
Post by rbowman
I would truly love to see that: Putin telling the world "Oh, by the way, we
found those emails you thought you lost."
Yea, that would be a hoot.
Putin could have the KGB post them on WikiLeaks....
Yes, I'd sure love to see that. Or maybe the
Chinese have a copy?
But they like all Obama and his incompetence and want to keep him as
long as possible. Obama was the best thing to ever happen to our enemies.
BeamMeUpScotty
2014-06-18 00:03:06 UTC
Permalink
"BeamMeUpScotty"
Post by BeamMeUpScotty
Post by Guy Fawkes
Post by Kickin' Ass and Takin' Names
On Sun, 15 Jun 2014 17:23:33 -0700, "raykeller"
Post by raykeller
He notes "All email servers in a professional organization use TAPE
backup. Meaning if all the above fails, you can restore the server using
the TAPE backups."
TAPE BACKUPS!?!?!?!?!?
Tape backups went out with the Model T.
You must really be a dumbass. They are required BY LAW to keep copies of
all emails. Desperation leaves a stench.
NIXON left gaps (erased the audio) on the Watergate Tapes and that was
the final STRAW AS I REMEMBER IT. Nixon was left with the choice of
resign or be impeached.
Obama losing IRS e-mails id just as bad.
Particularly since they couldn't be lost.
There are at LEAST 3 redundant copies.
IRS.
White House
NSA
Google
and the people Lois Lerner sent the e-mail to.

In the FBI or the other agencies she was coordinating with as in "the
other investigators" that she put on the case and her handlers that were
above her.

The people TEA PARTY PEOPLE that she contacted and anyone in her CC list
or in her mail program address list.
Stormin Mormon
2014-06-18 10:48:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by BeamMeUpScotty
Post by Guy Fawkes
You must really be a dumbass. They are required BY LAW to keep copies of
all emails. Desperation leaves a stench.
NIXON left gaps (erased the audio) on the Watergate Tapes and that was
the final STRAW AS I REMEMBER IT. Nixon was left with the choice of
resign or be impeached.
Obama losing IRS e-mails id just as bad.
You ever get the feeling our elected reps don't
feel much compulsion to obey laws?
--
.
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
Guy Fawkes
2014-06-18 12:04:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stormin Mormon
Post by BeamMeUpScotty
Post by Guy Fawkes
You must really be a dumbass. They are required BY LAW to keep copies of
all emails. Desperation leaves a stench.
NIXON left gaps (erased the audio) on the Watergate Tapes and that was
the final STRAW AS I REMEMBER IT. Nixon was left with the choice of
resign or be impeached.
Obama losing IRS e-mails id just as bad.
You ever get the feeling our elected reps don't
feel much compulsion to obey laws?
Yes, but they are quite certain you should.

I would say that makes them a clear and present danger.
--
When the government is no longer constrained by the laws of the land, then
neither are the people.
Jim Wilkins
2014-06-18 12:18:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stormin Mormon
Post by BeamMeUpScotty
Post by Guy Fawkes
You must really be a dumbass. They are required BY LAW to keep copies of
all emails. Desperation leaves a stench.
NIXON left gaps (erased the audio) on the Watergate Tapes and that was
the final STRAW AS I REMEMBER IT. Nixon was left with the choice of
resign or be impeached.
Obama losing IRS e-mails id just as bad.
You ever get the feeling our elected reps don't
feel much compulsion to obey laws?
Christopher A. Young
I get the feeling they have given up. They can't even make their
denials plausible.

Rome and Czarist Russia collapsed when they couldn't enlist strong
competent leaders to run the government, and none stand out now. Ike
was our last proven leader, since then we have elected mostly pretty
boys and just hoped they could do the job. Although I liked Reagan I
could see that he was acting the kindly grandfather who inspired
national confidence, and left all the decision-making to his
underlings. Like FDR and unlike Carter he was willing to hire and
listen to smarter and better informed advisors. 0bama seems to pick
people who make him look good by comparison.

Rome killed off its last hope in a petty power struggle:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flavius_Aetius
Of the jealous emperor who murdered him:
"I am ignorant, sir, of your motives or provocations; I only know that
you have acted like a man who has cut off his right hand with his
left."

Stalin, Napoleon and Hitler arose from squabbling gaggles of unfit
would-be rulers. At the time they seemed the only competent choices.
Jim Wilkins
2014-06-18 12:34:03 UTC
Permalink
"Jim Wilkins" <***@gmail.com> wrote in message news:lns00v$kni$***@dont-email.me...
0bama has to consider that choosing to lose has been the right answer
when the loss didn't hurt as much as continuing the war. Examples are
Lenin's surrender to Germany, DeGaulle giving up Algeria and the US
abandoning Vietnam.
Stormin Mormon
2014-06-18 12:35:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Wilkins
Post by Stormin Mormon
You ever get the feeling our elected reps don't
feel much compulsion to obey laws?
Christopher A. Young
I get the feeling they have given up. They can't even make their
denials plausible.
Rome and Czarist Russia collapsed when they couldn't enlist strong
competent leaders to run the government, and none stand out now. Ike
was our last proven leader, since then we have elected mostly pretty
boys and just hoped they could do the job. Although I liked Reagan I
could see that he was acting the kindly grandfather who inspired
national confidence, and left all the decision-making to his
underlings. Like FDR and unlike Carter he was willing to hire and
listen to smarter and better informed advisors. 0bama seems to pick
people who make him look good by comparison.
I really wonder some times, how far our formerly great
nation has fallen. And the people around me appear to
not even notice.

BTW, I also really liked Reagan. I was encouraged when
GHWB came to town on his big white horse, but he greatly
disappointed me.
--
.
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
Jim Wilkins
2014-06-18 12:46:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stormin Mormon
BTW, I also really liked Reagan. I was encouraged when
GHWB came to town on his big white horse, but he greatly
disappointed me.
Christopher A. Young
After his great success at building the Coalition the envious
Democratic Congress became grimly determined to grant him nothing
regardless of how good it might be.
-jsw
Stormin Mormon
2014-06-18 13:20:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Wilkins
Post by Stormin Mormon
BTW, I also really liked Reagan. I was encouraged when
GHWB came to town on his big white horse, but he greatly
disappointed me.
Christopher A. Young
After his great success at building the Coalition the envious
Democratic Congress became grimly determined to grant him nothing
regardless of how good it might be.
-jsw
You know, that's pretty consistent with Lib/Dem
policy and behaviour even today.
--
.
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
Guy Fawkes
2014-06-19 02:36:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stormin Mormon
Post by Jim Wilkins
Post by Stormin Mormon
You ever get the feeling our elected reps don't
feel much compulsion to obey laws?
Christopher A. Young
I get the feeling they have given up. They can't even make their
denials plausible.
Rome and Czarist Russia collapsed when they couldn't enlist strong
competent leaders to run the government, and none stand out now. Ike
was our last proven leader, since then we have elected mostly pretty
boys and just hoped they could do the job. Although I liked Reagan I
could see that he was acting the kindly grandfather who inspired
national confidence, and left all the decision-making to his
underlings. Like FDR and unlike Carter he was willing to hire and
listen to smarter and better informed advisors. 0bama seems to pick
people who make him look good by comparison.
I really wonder some times, how far our formerly great
nation has fallen. And the people around me appear to
not even notice.
BTW, I also really liked Reagan. I was encouraged when
GHWB came to town on his big white horse, but he greatly
disappointed me.
America has been poisoned by "educators" who have taught people how bad
America really is. When people are taught such tripe they are demoralized.

Even Reagan was a dissapointment. In particular i do not think he was hard
enough on our foreign enemies. It should always be unmistakenly clear that
fucking with the US is a sure way to extinction.

The left has succeeded in making us weak by poisoning the majority with
thier hate American exceptionalism and by encouraging minorities to be
aggrieved rather than strive to achieve. They have committed a far greater
crime than is now realized.
--
When the government is no longer constrained by the laws of the land, then
neither are the people.
Jim Wilkins
2014-06-19 10:57:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Guy Fawkes
The left has succeeded in making us weak by poisoning the majority with
thier hate American exceptionalism and by encouraging minorities to be
aggrieved rather than strive to achieve. They have committed a far greater
crime than is now realized.
Oh it's realized that we may revert to Third World status if we aren't
prepared for the effort to stay where we are now. Have you addressed
your dependence on continuously reliable electric power and bought a
4WD to travel bad roads? Do you own a chainsaw and know how to
maintain it? These aren't SHTF extremism, just normal rural
preparations for storms.

Ironically social inequality is greater in the Third World than in the
First. The smart ones will always stay on top.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlos_Slim
Edward A. Falk
2014-06-18 02:01:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kickin' Ass and Takin' Names
On Sun, 15 Jun 2014 17:23:33 -0700, "raykeller"
Post by raykeller
He notes "All email servers in a professional organization use TAPE backup.
Meaning if all the above fails, you can restore the server using the TAPE
backups."
TAPE BACKUPS!?!?!?!?!?
Tape backups went out with the Model T.
A) not so, and

B) so what? One way or another, there will be backups.
--
-Ed Falk, ***@despams.r.us.com
http://thespamdiaries.blogspot.com/
Frank
2014-06-17 13:41:15 UTC
Permalink
Forget all the technicalities.
Emails requested over a year ago just found to be missing.
Obviously more stalling by a politically motivated agency.
F. George McDuffee
2014-06-17 20:11:07 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 15 Jun 2014 17:23:33 -0700, "raykeller"
Post by raykeller
June 15, 2014
IT experts call BS on IRS claim to have lost Lerner emails
By Thomas Lifson
<snip>
All the emails from six more individuals have been lost.
Their computers crashed, and the server back-up tapes can't
be located.

Just set the following off to my Congressional
Representatives. see senate.gov and house.gov for yours.

============ email follows ============
NEVER CONFUSE ACTIVITY WITH ACCOMPLISHMENT

To:
Senator Roberts
Senator Moran
Representative Jenkins
Representative Pompeo

From:
Dr. George McDuffee

Date:
Tuesday, June 17, 2014

Ref:
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/06/16/house-committee-subpoenas-head-irs-to-testify-on-lost-lerner-emails/
http://bostonherald.com/news_opinion/us_politics/2014/06/lawmakers_irs_lost_more_emails_in_tea_party_probe
<snip>
On Tuesday, two key lawmakers said the IRS has also lost
emails from six additional IRS workers whose computers
crashed. Among them was Nikole Flax, who was chief of staff
to Lerner's boss, then-deputy commissioner Steven Miller.
</snip>


While I appreciate a symbolic gesture
[http://washingtonexaminer.com/house-budget-punishes-irs-with-15-cut-halts-obamacare-enforcement/article/2549830?custom_click=rss
], it is critical to remember that it is only symbolic.

There are several specific action items that can be
accomplished IF THE CONGRESS IS SERIOUS about recovery of
the “lost” emails, between the IRS, administration, and
quite likely the DNC and Democratic members of Congress.

(1) Issue subpoenas to the web-based back-up services such
as Carbonite. The missing emails may have been part of a
back-up. The Carbonite site is included as an example, there
are many others. http://www.carbonite.com/ . Many of the
ISP providers also offer back-up services, example:
http://www.valnet.net/services/valnet-vault . Another
possibility is that off-site back-ups may have been done to
a FTP account on an ISP server. Example software to do this
can be seen at http://alternativeto.net/software/duplicati/
, there are many others.

(2) Offer a substantial cash reward [e. g. 100,000$US] for
copies of the back-ups, no questions asked. While it may be
difficult for the House to allocate the reward money, I am
sure several PACs will be most happy to underwrite such an
effort.

This again demonstrates that a requirement, i. e. retention
of communications and documents by governmental departments,
means nothing unless it is backed with significant civil and
criminal penalties for the failure to do so.

It is suggested that the penalties be different for
inadvertent failure to retain, such as the demotion of one
or more GSA pay grade and loss of 5 years of longevity to
retirement and a pension, to mandatory prison time of at
least one year [to establish a felony conviction],
significant money fines [possibly 50% of the individual’s
net worth], dismissal from the civil service, and loss of
civil service pension/retirement, for deliberate failure to
retain, or in this case the destruction of such records.

Given the Republican minority in the Senate, and the
Imperial presidency, it is most doubtful such meaningful
legislation could be enacted in the current political
environment, but it should be a priority item at the first
opportunity.
========= end of email ============
--
Unka' George

"Gold is the money of kings,
silver is the money of gentlemen,
barter is the money of peasants,
but debt is the money of slaves"

-Norm Franz, "Money and Wealth in the New Millenium"
Scout
2014-06-17 22:45:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kickin' Ass and Takin' Names
On Sun, 15 Jun 2014 17:23:33 -0700, "raykeller"
Post by raykeller
June 15, 2014
IT experts call BS on IRS claim to have lost Lerner emails
By Thomas Lifson
<snip>
All the emails from six more individuals have been lost.
Their computers crashed, and the server back-up tapes can't
be located.
Just set the following off to my Congressional
Representatives. see senate.gov and house.gov for yours.
============ email follows ============
NEVER CONFUSE ACTIVITY WITH ACCOMPLISHMENT
Senator Roberts
Senator Moran
Representative Jenkins
Representative Pompeo
Dr. George McDuffee
Tuesday, June 17, 2014
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/06/16/house-committee-subpoenas-head-irs-to-testify-on-lost-lerner-emails/
http://bostonherald.com/news_opinion/us_politics/2014/06/lawmakers_irs_lost_more_emails_in_tea_party_probe
<snip>
On Tuesday, two key lawmakers said the IRS has also lost
emails from six additional IRS workers whose computers
crashed. Among them was Nikole Flax, who was chief of staff
to Lerner's boss, then-deputy commissioner Steven Miller.
</snip>
While I appreciate a symbolic gesture
[http://washingtonexaminer.com/house-budget-punishes-irs-with-15-cut-halts-obamacare-enforcement/article/2549830?custom_click=rss
], it is critical to remember that it is only symbolic.
There are several specific action items that can be
accomplished IF THE CONGRESS IS SERIOUS about recovery of
the "lost" emails, between the IRS, administration, and
quite likely the DNC and Democratic members of Congress.
<snip>

Or they could quit dicking around and simply order the NSA to cough them up.
After all, they retain copies of ALL emails, private, corporate, and
governmental.
F. George McDuffee
2014-06-18 01:58:16 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 17 Jun 2014 18:45:04 -0400, "Scout"
<***@centurylink.removeme.this2.nospam.net> wrote:
<snip>
Post by Scout
Or they could quit dicking around and simply order the NSA to cough them up.
After all, they retain copies of ALL emails, private, corporate, and
governmental.
==============
Indeed, but NSA pays less attention to what the Congress
says/wants than the IRS does.
--
Unka' George

"Gold is the money of kings,
silver is the money of gentlemen,
barter is the money of peasants,
but debt is the money of slaves"

-Norm Franz, "Money and Wealth in the New Millenium"
Winston_Smith
2014-06-18 01:41:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by raykeller
IT experts call BS on IRS claim to have lost Lerner emails
The cover-up is always worse than the crime, the conclusion drawn from
Watergate, does not seem to have been learned by the IRS or whoever directed
it to make the claim late Friday that emails from Lois Lerner to outside
agencies (including most notably the White House) were lost in a computer
"crash." That claim is risible according to various experts.
Jason Howerton of The Blaze interviewed veteran IT expert Norman Cillo, "an
Army veteran who worked in intelligence and a former program manager at
Microsoft," who laid out six reasons, complete with charts, why he believes
Today's newscast brings reports they lost much more than they thought
when that ladies' personal computer crashed. Oh, yeah, one PC dies and
that cripples a network. Why do I have trouble believing that?

The cover up is expanding. Impound the drives and backup tapes now.
BeamMeUpScotty
2014-06-18 01:54:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Winston_Smith
Post by raykeller
IT experts call BS on IRS claim to have lost Lerner emails
The cover-up is always worse than the crime, the conclusion drawn from
Watergate, does not seem to have been learned by the IRS or whoever directed
it to make the claim late Friday that emails from Lois Lerner to outside
agencies (including most notably the White House) were lost in a computer
"crash." That claim is risible according to various experts.
Jason Howerton of The Blaze interviewed veteran IT expert Norman Cillo, "an
Army veteran who worked in intelligence and a former program manager at
Microsoft," who laid out six reasons, complete with charts, why he believes
Today's newscast brings reports they lost much more than they thought
when that ladies' personal computer crashed. Oh, yeah, one PC dies and
that cripples a network. Why do I have trouble believing that?
The cover up is expanding. Impound the drives and backup tapes now.
Why the FBI didn't raid their offices with a warrant to get the data
months ago is a mystery. Had it been a guitar manufacturer buying wood
from international suppliers then the FBI would be there with a SWAT
team to break down the doors and take all the computers and hard drives
and back up systems.
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