Discussion:
Changing threats and risks
(too old to reply)
Stormin Mormon
2012-04-22 03:14:01 UTC
Permalink
I didn't think I'd see troops confiscating guns, in US. But then, Hurricane
Katrina came along.

I didn't think I'd see nuke fall out, but then the nuke plant blew in Japan.

I didn't think I'd see....... and the list goes on.

What now? Sun blast? Hurricanes? Earth quakes? UN troops in the streets?
Shortages of beer nuts? Super Bowl postponed due to martial law? Fire at the
Clappington Toilet paper warehouse, and USA loses 90% of its toilet paper?
Pull over and stop module built into Onstar? RFID chips in credit cards?
What is this world coming to?

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
Winston_Smith
2012-04-22 04:06:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stormin Mormon
What now? Sun blast? Hurricanes? Earth quakes?
LED's are semiconductors you know? A nice little terrorist EMP burst
will leave you completely in the dark.
rbowman
2012-04-22 05:14:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stormin Mormon
What is this world coming to?
"I'm not gonna worry wrinkles in my brow
'Cause nothin's ever gonna be alright nohow
No matter how I struggle and strive
I'll never get out of this world alive"

'I'll Never Get Out Of This World Alive' Hank Williams
n***@jecarter.us
2012-04-22 11:02:12 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 21 Apr 2012 23:14:01 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
Post by Stormin Mormon
I didn't think I'd see troops confiscating guns, in US. But then, Hurricane
Katrina came along.
I didn't think I'd see nuke fall out, but then the nuke plant blew in Japan.
I didn't think I'd see....... and the list goes on.
What now? Sun blast? Hurricanes? Earth quakes? UN troops in the streets?
Shortages of beer nuts? Super Bowl postponed due to martial law? Fire at the
Clappington Toilet paper warehouse, and USA loses 90% of its toilet paper?
Pull over and stop module built into Onstar? RFID chips in credit cards?
What is this world coming to?
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
Later versions of OnStar have throttle control capability. They even
ran ads touting its use in stopping a vehicle that had been stolen.

No GM vehicles here; don't plan to buy the aftermarket version of
OnStar either.

Even the cell phones are too old to have GPS capability - closest
ability location would be via tower signal strength / triangulation.

Me paranoid? No, just cheap.
Norman
2012-04-23 01:55:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by n***@jecarter.us
Later versions of OnStar have throttle control capability. They even
ran ads touting its use in stopping a vehicle that had been stolen.
No GM vehicles here; don't plan to buy the aftermarket version of
OnStar either.
Even the cell phones are too old to have GPS capability - closest
ability location would be via tower signal strength / triangulation.
Are you sure? It was my understanding that OnStar used GPS.
Police & EMS would have trouble finding you after an accident or
if they shut down the car. Triangulation is too vague (and
wouldn't be something passed on to the end-user) for the mapping
and direction add-ons they sell.

Not sure what you mean by phones being too old either. Since
analog was turned off, they must have gone to either CDMA or GSM.

I also recall seeing a news story a few years ago about concerns
that if police are listening to conversations inside the car when
the car gets into an accident, the car cannot call for help. I
vaguely recall a follow-up story about it, but don't remember if
it was ever resolved.

http://www.onstar.com
Winston_Smith
2012-04-23 04:08:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Norman
Post by n***@jecarter.us
Later versions of OnStar have throttle control capability. They even
ran ads touting its use in stopping a vehicle that had been stolen.
No GM vehicles here; don't plan to buy the aftermarket version of
OnStar either.
Even the cell phones are too old to have GPS capability - closest
ability location would be via tower signal strength / triangulation.
Are you sure? It was my understanding that OnStar used GPS.
Police & EMS would have trouble finding you after an accident or
if they shut down the car.
Don't have to kill everything. Just open a relay in series with the
key switch. Hell, here in Phoenix you could just disable the power
windows and kill the AC. Guy will pull over and walk away in a matter
of a few miles. In fact, they do that with specially tricked out bait
cars. Lock the doors, turn off the key, and talk to the guy via the
radio telling him how screwed he is.
Post by Norman
Triangulation is too vague (and
Just knowing which tower you are on, gets within a mile radius most
places. Relative signal level from three towers gives a pretty good
fix. You are usually within range of more than three towers, so it
can be refined quite a lot. Computer knows how to do that so it's
fast.
Post by Norman
wouldn't be something passed on to the end-user) for the mapping
and direction add-ons they sell.
But it IS available to authorities. The phone company has to track
your position so they can balance load on separate towers and also to
know when to hand you off to the next tower.
Norman
2012-04-24 05:34:25 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 22 Apr 2012 21:08:00 -0700, Winston_Smith
Post by Winston_Smith
Post by Norman
Triangulation is too vague (and
Just knowing which tower you are on, gets within a mile radius most
places. Relative signal level from three towers gives a pretty good
fix. You are usually within range of more than three towers, so it
can be refined quite a lot. Computer knows how to do that so it's
fast.
Well, yes. Technically it can be done relatively quickly, but
there's a lot of variables (like base station spacing, base
station power levels, handset model, local obstructions, number
of channels active, etc). I'm just not entirely sure how quickly
this information can be pulled from the system (ie. seconds or
minutes), and whether this is something that requires human
intervention. Doesn't this type of information require a court
order?

I do vaguely recall that the system wouldn't allow a handoff to
another base station unless there was an available channel on the
new base station, so theoretically, there are points in time that
the phone is holding signals to three base stations. But at the
same time, I'm not sure if that was controlled by the handset or
the base stations. I'm also not sure what the resolution of that
triangulation would be (feet, yards, miles).

Also, didn't CDMA keep dividing the channels until the signal
started to degrade? Oh, no, there was no range limit on CDMA
because there's no timing restrictions for multiple phones on a
channel. That could also affect triangulation. This would also be
something that probably wouldn't be passed on to a third party
like OnStar, so it wouldn't apply to mapping (which is a basic
OnStar service).
Post by Winston_Smith
Post by Norman
wouldn't be something passed on to the end-user) for the mapping
and direction add-ons they sell.
But it IS available to authorities. The phone company has to track
your position so they can balance load on separate towers and also to
know when to hand you off to the next tower.
There's no dynamic load balancing. That's done by provisioning
the number of available channels for each sector of a base
station. I think managing the active demand on a particular base
station is pretty much limited to turning off/on particular
channels. In a city, there's some limited ability to skip a
particular base station if it's overloaded & go to the next one,
but if the system is that busy, you're likely to have your call
dropped when you run into the next overloaded base station.

But triangulation wouldn't work for OnStar Turn by Turn service.
Thus, OnStar would have to be using GPS.
Winston_Smith
2012-04-24 13:48:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Norman
Post by Winston_Smith
Post by Norman
Triangulation is too vague (and
Just knowing which tower you are on, gets within a mile radius most
places. Relative signal level from three towers gives a pretty good
fix. You are usually within range of more than three towers, so it
can be refined quite a lot. Computer knows how to do that so it's
fast.
Well, yes. Technically it can be done relatively quickly, but
there's a lot of variables (like base station spacing, base
station power levels, handset model, local obstructions, number
of channels active, etc). I'm just not entirely sure how quickly
this information can be pulled from the system (ie. seconds or
minutes), and whether this is something that requires human
intervention.
I'd be surprised if it isn't constantly logged. Base station spacing,
is fixed and known, as is base station power. Two of your five
variables are constants.

Handset model is irrelevant too. Whatever power it's putting out is
received at any moment in three or more places. Relative level at
those three locations are what counts, not transmitted power. Realize
it's received power that counts (received at the station, from the
cell phone).

Only one channel counts - the one the subject is on. Yes it hops, but
at any instant you are on one channel and obviously the tower knows
which one that is.

Local obstructions ARE local to you. They average out if you are
moving.
Post by Norman
Doesn't this type of information require a court order?
Hee, hee, yeah, right. They recently put out a fee schedule for
anyone that wanted to buy info. The laws protecting land lines are
pretty much non-existant for newer services. See below for other
details.
Post by Norman
I do vaguely recall that the system wouldn't allow a handoff to
another base station unless there was an available channel on the
new base station, so theoretically, there are points in time that
the phone is holding signals to three base stations. But at the
same time, I'm not sure if that was controlled by the handset or
the base stations.
Base station controls. It has to, to keep loads balanced and
coordinate handing you off. Might hand you off because your signal is
getting weaker, might do it because it needs the slot for someone
else.
Post by Norman
I'm also not sure what the resolution of that
triangulation would be (feet, yards, miles).
One triangulation, probably yards. Dozens, hundreds as you talk and
move, can be amazing. Put on a tick and do time of arrival and it can
get down to feet or better. Speed of light is a nanoSecond/foot. Not
hard resolving nS.
Post by Norman
Also, didn't CDMA keep dividing the channels until the signal
started to degrade? Oh, no, there was no range limit on CDMA
because there's no timing restrictions for multiple phones on a
channel. That could also affect triangulation. This would also be
something that probably wouldn't be passed on to a third party
like OnStar, so it wouldn't apply to mapping (which is a basic
OnStar service).
That is exactly how google used to place the 'you are here' dot on
their maps. Maybe still do.

OnStar basic mapping is generic GPS, just like the $100 stick it on
the dash units. Then they add features for their fee. That GPS can
tell them where you are just like any modern cell phone can.

(Side note - one 'service' OnStar is offering for paying customers,
they will log your instantaneous speeds moment by moment forever and
sell that to police who mail out tickets and insurance companies who
change your rates, trucking companies to manage speed, route, and rest
requirements, etc. They also sell police route/time information. Were
you at the scene of the murder of your ex-girlfriend even though your
other girlfriend gives you an alibi by saying she was drinking with
you at Joe's Shady Lounge?)
Post by Norman
Post by Winston_Smith
Post by Norman
wouldn't be something passed on to the end-user) for the mapping
and direction add-ons they sell.
All information is for sale. Most already is, more will be every day.
The cell phone business is on the verge of making more money selling
info than they do providing connections.
Post by Norman
Post by Winston_Smith
But it IS available to authorities. The phone company has to track
your position so they can balance load on separate towers and also to
know when to hand you off to the next tower.
There's no dynamic load balancing. That's done by provisioning
the number of available channels for each sector of a base
station. I think managing the active demand on a particular base
station is pretty much limited to turning off/on particular
channels.
Customer is going to be pissed if you turn him off. Dropped calls
number one bitch. The answer is, they drop you from one tower and add
you to another. At any moment you can be worked from several towers.
But each tower has it's own area and unique momentary load. They also
want lowest total radiated power. The towers manage their loads by
working out which customer gets which tower at this instant.
Post by Norman
In a city, there's some limited ability to skip a
particular base station if it's overloaded & go to the next one,
but if the system is that busy, you're likely to have your call
dropped when you run into the next overloaded base station.
But triangulation wouldn't work for OnStar Turn by Turn service.
Thus, OnStar would have to be using GPS.
It's a combination of technologies. Just like the detour and traffic
jam advisory enhancement I can buy for my $100 stand alone GPS unit.
OnStar can transmit and I doubt it's direct to a satellite, so it's
probably some secondary cell phone system process.

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